Blex
I graduated 3rd of my class from HS. That gave me authomatic entrance to one of the best universities in Mexico City. But I was fed up with all the empty egg shells and I went to a relatively new College institution that today is ranked among the 10 best universities in Mexico. My masters degree on Human Resources looks real cool on one of the walls at my parent's house, I gave them what they wanted, then my wings took me to different skies. I'm the great grandson of the first dean and founder of the UNAM, the most important university in Latin America, yes, elitism can get to you.
[2005-05-13 10:06:28]

Nebur
You snobby, snobby girl! Seriously, though, I can tell you that your feelings will likely disipate over the years, when you are out in the work force. I work with some people who went to my schools (or higher ranked ones), that are dumber than a rock. I also work with folk that went to non-ABA acredited law schools that are geniouses. Just stay away from Stanford people. They are all losers.
[2005-05-13 10:53:36]

cindylu
Nebur, what if when I'm in the workforce I'm still in academia? Elitism runs deep there.
[2005-05-13 11:43:11]

Vette
umm...i applied to all my schools for the name as well...save for st. mary's college near home. i have to admit i still like hearing people say "wow" when i say i did my undergrad at ucla...and this is from folks who go to nyu with me :) helps to take the edge off of doing what we do and seeing what we see in the social work environment.
[2005-05-13 12:44:16]

lex
Cindy, I agree with Nebur. You may not always feel that way. When I was graduating from high school I was SUCH a school snob. Me go to a Cal State? As if!!! I applied to only one school, not even questioning whether I'd get in or not. I was that confident. (And looking back, damn lucky). But out in the "real world" you encounter people from all walks of life. People who are intelligent who may not have even gone to college. Different circumstances, not having the encouragement and mentors to value education. And yet, you can see that they have a lot to offer. Talent. Creativity. You say that what if you end up working in academia. All the more reason to involve yourself in other activities around you. Become a mentor for someone young who may not be on the college road. Become involved in volunteering in something else that you care about. It only takes one person to enter your life to break through that elitism. Honestly, you will probably always value certain schools more (I do) or place a person you first meet at a higher "notch" because of the school they graduated from. But someone will surprise you one day. I'm sure of it.
[2005-05-13 12:55:27]

tumbleweed
That's one of the reasons I love your blog, Cindylu, it always generates so much discussion (internal and in the blogosphere)...I'lladmit, when I first read your entry today, I was taken aback, I was a bit annoyed, I rolled my eyes�but then I realized, �Wait a sec, I can be a total elitist!�(My elitism is just more random, like �thou shalt not be boring��but people that know me, know I�m damn choosy when it comes to my inner circle). We ALL have our little judgments, our prerequisites, and I was able to appreciate you putting yours out there like that�with all that said, I do agree with Nebur and Lex. From my own experience: I went to a really good high school, grew up mostly in a nice neighborhood and had a pretty stable home life. I�ve always been praised for my intellectual �potential,� but did I live up to it academically? Nope. Mostly because I�m a procrastinator and get bored easily. Maybe as an academic, you can and should be an elitist about the programs you invest yourself in�but all I know is that when I finally got around to going back to college, after attending a state school and the a private, Catholic university (where I�m currently attending) I�ve realized that for me, the institution doesn't make a difference. The classes I have learned most from haven't been from the challenging classes or the classes with the best professors (although that does help) but the classes I really committed to. I know people from high school that were smart and worked their asses off to get into top schools and people that were brilliant and didn�t bother to take the SATs. I guess what my long-winded point is, is that education is what a person makes of it. Some of my heroes and more inspiring chums are people that graduated from the toughest university: the School of Hardknocks.
[2005-05-13 14:10:42]

Nebur
Ms. Lu: I thought of that and you are right. For example, Even though I went to Cal and Davis, I could never get a job at my owm law school (top 20), because I did not go to a top ten law school. In other words, I am not good enough for them, even though they taught me. I am honored as hell of the education I got, and yeah, I make smart-ass (baby-blue) comments from time to time. By in large, though, I know that though I worked to get where I got, so did thousands of other latino brothers, but the door wasn't open for them. My message to you: Be proud of where you are, make the best of your opportunity, don't take it for granted, and continue doing all in your power to open more doors.
[2005-05-13 14:25:03]

irasali
cindylu, i'm really proud of you and other latinas that have come this far. i have two friends that i call doctor and its my way of acknowledging their academic accomplishments. but there is something about this post que me deja con espina, but we are not all perfect and i can be elitist about some stuff too-- like tumbleweed said, its cool that you put it out like this. i got to college by accident, i might as well have tripped over a rock. i did practically no research, just knew it was the next thing to do--that or get a job at a bank like a lot of my friends. i filled out one application, it was to an open admissions art college. after graduating and joining the workforce i'm forced to agree with you, the name can make a difference. and if i knew then what i know now, i would probably be tempted to be more selective. but honestly i don't think i would want to change it. as the first to attend college in my family, i had no one to turn to for 'know-how' support, except for the new latino friends i made at school. the school really did nurture me, i would have probably been roadkill at a bigger university.
[2005-05-13 14:56:52]

HispanicPundit
Elitism first, latte's second, than next thing you know, you think you have a unique and special privilege to run the world as you like and the peasants are nothing but a bunch of dumb mofos that can't take care of themselves, which is why they so desperately need you. It's a circle that I hate down to my bones. You gotta fight it like the plaque, or else it will eat you alive. You're lucky though, you are Mexican, and our culture, our way of growing up, has great defenses that will assist you in fighting this off.

I have a few comments on what you said though. You write, I've read books like The Shape of the River and studies in refereed higher education research journals that tell us that students who go to elite institutions do better financially throughout their lives.

I wonder how much of this is correlated to intelligence. I've heard arguments made, especially in economic circles, that state that your intelligence plays a major part in where you end up in life, and since IQ is somewhat correlated to SAT scores, and SAT scores are strongly correlated to what school you go to, than it is really your intelligence that mattered most, not whether you went to UCLA or Cal State Long Beach.

I can tell you with a 100% certainty that where I work, and it is a fortune 500 company-ranked in the top 10 places to work in the United States, what school you went to plays NO ROLE in your economic status whatsoever. All of us engineers get the same starting pay, whether we went to USC or San Diego State. From there it is up to us to prove ourselves, and get raises/promotions. In addition, in my dept alone, the majority of the VP's and Director's attended schools that were in no way considered top schools.

In addition to intelligence, there is another factor, indeed a much more important factor that plays into all of this, ganas. For example, I dropped out of High School (I have my GED), got kicked out of schools for fighting, and overall had no desire to succeed financially in life when I was younger. When my priorities significantly changed, and my ganas rose to high levels, I graduated second in my class from an (albeit low ranked) college, and now I am taking pre-grad classes at UC San Diego in Electrical Engineering and hanging with the best of them. I am the only (physically identifiable) Hispanic in my class, and I always score at the top 10 percent (ok, ok, in this last class top 40 percent - but i blame it on racism bloging) of my class. I would be willing to bet that if all of my friends growing up had the same ganas I now have, they would be no different than me.

I do agree with your general point though, elitism is ugly, and sometimes can be hard to fight off. I went from living in an area that had no white people at all (Compton, California) to an area that has no Hispanic people at all, and now make more money than most people I know, including my own father. Sometimes I get the feeling that it is all because I am smarter, wiser and somehow 'better' than them, but I fight it off with all my energy. Because, I know it is not true, and my experience growing up strongly confirms this.
[2005-05-13 16:11:21]

oso
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice. Even though I'm still your number 1 groupie (or try to be), I think elitism is silly and ridiculous and obnoxious. I come back to this blog because of the content you put up, not because of your qualifications. Sometimes people ask me if I'm qualified to write on a topic and I tell them no because I don't ask anyone to qualify me. Cause really, all elitism is, if you think about it, is how much you listen to the opinions of others. Here in Monterrey there is a well known university called El Tec. And it is amazing how much it smacks of elitism. Any student who goes there or any alumnus who went there will make sure to bring it up one way or another in the first 10 seconds of conversation. It always bothers me and in retaliation I start asking very pointed questions about their field instead of their title. OK, I'm ranting, I know. But you're too smart to fall for letting your qualifications speak for you instead of your ideas and arguments. rant over.
[2005-05-13 16:16:48]

Rodolfo
Your post is good in that you touch on a couple of very important subjects. The school you go to can play a "wow" factor, when people find out. But like HP, I took a different route and still got a degree from Cal. Does the fact that I only took the PSAT before I ditched high school to go to a CC make my degree from Cal less than those that had good SAT scores, got a HS diploma, and went straight to a University? In the real world it does not matter, it's your ganas, and ethics that speaks more than a piece of paper. It is that and your worth that makes you important in this society. I'm all for more people of color to get educated, but sometimes the education doesn't necessarily have to be from a prestigious University to make a difference. I think I am fortunate to not only have a degree, but also have that education that I got from my family, and the streets. Without it I might forget to keep it humble, and how to keep the ganas, and the hustle going. Peace.
[2005-05-13 16:50:49]

cindylu
Oh, wow. I didn't realize this post would generate so much discussion or so many reactions. I won't be able to really reply to them for a few days. I'm in the middle of my first year doctoral exam weekend. So... blogging will be sparse. If you all see me online or blogging, tell me to get back to work. For those of you into lighting candles and stuff, that would be cool too.
[2005-05-13 17:11:14]

loca
it's awesome posts like this that keep me in love with this blog. it's great to read stuff like this, although as some have said your elitism will die down when you deal with more people than just academia.
still this is a fantastic piece on how hard it is to have certain biases. Although now I feel bad, I went to a low school and I ended up flunking out anyway...It's a good thing blogs are free and on the internet, i'd hate not to be exposed to interesting pieces like this because i'm not edumacated.
[2005-05-13 17:16:48]

vicky
i totally understand where you're coming from, since it's totally normal and almost expected for people to believe that higher education and status add to your worth in life. i respect you for sharing your opinions on the subject, even though i disagree. in my opinion, status is in and of itself a bourgeoise idea constructed to distance classes even further away from each other. i honestly believe that institutions of higher learning are not for everyone. some people just can't function within that system and while some might be lazy, some might be brilliant.. more brilliant than those being turned out by harvard, yale, princeton, etc. i know i've come across some in my lifetime who as soon as i met, i thought to myself, "these are the sort of people who we need more of". i know in high school, a good number of the brightest kids were the one who had no affinity for the system and who were more fit to teach than half the teachers. you put so much faith in the fact that if you go to school, you'll be happy, you'll be well off, you'll be comfortable for life and if you don't, you'll be a failure forever. i respect how far you've gone in your life, getting into ucla is by no means easy. you're one of the most intelligent girls i know and i don't actually know you per se, girls like you make me proud of my gender and of my ethnicity. however, i still see the idea of status as a tool to divide rather than something that is anywhere close to an accurate measure of personal accomplishment. think of all those people who have not had to work a day in their life, whose status came to them before they were even born. i don't respect them, but i would respect the person who lives by their own philosophies and who can teach me far more about life than any classroom has, even if they don't have a certificate to show.
[2005-05-13 22:37:00]

vicky
ps: excuse me... the commie in me came out a bit..
[2005-05-13 22:39:21]

will
i like hamburgers!
[2005-05-14 03:05:08]

Geo
Elitism runs wild in this country. The bright side is that you don't seem like the kind of person that will forget about la raza and that's the most important thing. What I've gotten from reading you, is that you're working toward this degree to help out the chica/os stay in school. Para no cantinflear: just don't let it run its roots into the reason you've worked so hard for your education.
[2005-05-14 10:14:52]

name Analisa
Wow, that was an interesting discussion. I know someone who is labioso...so much so that he just got a job at Yale. Intelligence or cleverness? I don't know. Is there a difference?
[2005-05-18 10:45:56]

what do you think about the latest entry?